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Smoke and mirrors?: The extraordinary claims have sparked a frenzy of interest across the Internet. Credit: iStockphoto SYDNEY: A U.S. broadcast executive-turned-scientist has seemingly found a way to burn seawater. Though it has the air of a hoax, if true, it could be one of the biggest discoveries in chemistry in recent times. John Kanzius, from Erie, Pennsylvania, blasted a test tube of salt water with high frequency radio waves, causing the water to burn like a candle, he told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette newspaper. Chemist Rustum Roy from Pennsylvania State University told the same newspaper that he had confirmed the phenomenon by replicating the experiment himself. Though the technique and results have not yet been published in a peer-reviewed journal, they are sparking a frenzy of interest on the Internet, where video clips showing the technique are beginning to circulate (such as this one on YouTube). "Enormous potential" "Certainly it's interesting," physical chemist, Scott Kable, of the University of Sydney in Australia, told Cosmos Online. The technique is theoretically possible and has "enormous potential," he said. But without more information, Kable commented, the mechanism and role of salt and other electrolytes remains unknown. Roy explained to the Post-Gazette, that the water itself doesn't burn. His best guess is that the energy from the radio waves breaks the bonds between the molecules, releasing hydrogen that can be ignited with a flame. The temperature of the flame was measured at 1,650 °C. The accidental discovery came out of research Kanzius was motivated to undertake when he found out he had cancer. The TV station owner decided to use his broadcast knowledge to experimentally fry cancer cells using radio waves in a garage laboratory at his home. Kanzius added a solution of nano-sized gold and carbon particles into a test tube of tumour cells. He predicted that the particles would migrate to the cancer cells and act as an antenna for the searing heat produced by radio waves – in the process killing the cells. It's not clear how he planned to target cancer cells within the body. However, when someone noticed condensation in the test tubes, Kanzius decided to try the technique for desalinating water. The subsequent blast of high frequency radio waves caused the water to seem to give off a gas that he was able to ignite with a match. Future fuel Kanzius now speculates that the technique could be used to burn water to produce energy – he says he has built an engine that runs off the heat produced by the flame. However, even if the claims turn out to be true, it remains to be seen if the energy produced could compensate for the radio wave energy required for the reaction. Kanzius is seeking a patent on the technique and is currently tight-lipped on a more detailed explanation. The most important potential application of the discovery is the safe production of hydrogen, said the University of Sydney's Kable. Presently, hydrogen is produced either from reacting natural gas and steam, which emits the greenhouse gas carbon dioxide, or by sending an electric current through water. The highly flammable gas requires transport in tankers, a dangerous prospect. Kable says that the ability to produce hydrogen from water while it's already inside an engine would be an extremely useful and safe method. But don't worry about setting fire to your cup of coffee in the microwave. Kable believes that the amount of energy required to break molecular bonds far exceeds the energy produced in the fire. This means any practical application is likely a long way off. Readers' comments |
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Energy Consumption
Before getting excited by this invention you would have to know more about the amount of energy being consumed by the radio frequency generator that is cracking the water into hydrogen and oxygen compared with the amount of energy liberated by burning the oxygen and hydrogen. My guess is that the energy equation will be extremely unfavourable.
missing step
Ive heard alot about the effect on salt water but what about normal h2o. If there was any effect on normal water it would have been released with the original findings, in the video we see the salt burn and sit in the water, so the reaction must be due to the mixture not the individule elements.
Typo
PittsburgH Post Gazette - there's an "h"
Ooops
Typo corrected - thanks.
Resonance
It sounds like resonance to me...which means that if done right, the amount of energy needed, like hitting the right frequency of a tuning fork, could be very little (his machine to produce the radio waves is not optimized for energy consumption, because it was made for killing cancer cells...also the design of projecting the waves to the salt water...and so on).
Despite the energy
Despite the energy consumption, would it not be feasible to increase the surfae area of your salt water, place it under a boiler of some sort, and boom--steam? Sure a test tube isnt going to produce gargantuan amounts of energy, but it doesnt take much to extend a radio wave.
So you can fill a 20 square foot room with 3 inches of salt water, turn the emitter on, and have a furnace. I think that would mean more energy out than in. (The first law of thermodynamics will be shattered, someone will have to console him....) Just a thought.
And I agree on resonance... unlike electrolysis, this must shake the hydrogen away from the oxygen, rather than just knocking it away. Though one would think vaporation would occur before combustion... a lot to think about. RF waves usually only excite water; this could open up something unique in that other elements may also have specific frequencies that can burst bonds... Just my two cents.
Uh, no.
Doesn't matter how "very little" that energy is, the amount of energy needed to split water into hydrogen and oxygen will always be greater than the amount you can get from burning it.
Always. Period.
That's simple thermodynamics...that apparently only one percent of the world's population seems to understand...
...which of course explains why the world's so screwed up.
Could it be reasoned that
Could it be reasoned that the salt within the water is acting as a catalyst in this dissociation? It might go a fair way to explain why we have not seen this effect with normal water after all and would mean that with some experimentation we could feasibly produce a much more efficient process.
Just a thought.
What frequency
As the radio frequency would have been designed to resonate the nano particles injected into the cancer cells it may be possible to adjust the frequency to resonate the molecules of water more efficiently, as far as the salt is concernes it may be irrelevent, on the other hand, with the current frequency setup it could equally be important if it alterd the molecuar size of the water to a closer resonant size. It would be interesting to now the frequency the machine works at, so some independant experiments could be carried out. It would tie in with the Myers machine which fed high frequency d.c. to a stainless cathode and anode setup. The answer is out there and I have no doubt will be proven in the future, possibly when the governments find the best form of taxation to apply to it, without the possibility of tax avoidance.If everyone could run off free power, governments would collapse.
except....
there's no such thing as free power, the laws of thermodynamics forbid it.
Basically, the machine is using a ton of energy to crack water into hydrogen and oxygen. The oxygen and hydrogen then burn, the product of which is... tada, water! You're going from liquid water to water vapor, wasting energy in the process.
If I use a machine to lift a weight, the energy I gain from dropping that weight won't be enough to power the machine to lift the weight again. The same concept applies here, but instead of gravitational potential energy we're considering chemical potential energy.