Artist's impression of a Neanderthal hunter. New evidence suggests the Neanderthals and modern humans interbred. Credit: American Museum of Natural History
SYDNEY: Modern humans contain a little bit of Neanderthal, according to a new theory, because the two interbred and became one species.
The theory is the latest addition to the ongoing debate about what happened to this early species of human.
In a paper published this week in the U.S. journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, a team of European researchers report a “mosaic of modern human and archaic Neanderthal features” in 30,000 -year-old human fossils from Romania.
Co-author Erik Trinkaus from Washington University explains: “[Some] closely related species of mammals freely interbreed, produce fertile viable offspring, and blend populations.” This is what appears to have happened with Neanderthals and modern humans, he says.
Shorter and stouter than modern humans, but with larger brains, Neanderthals lived in Europe, central Asia and the Middle East for about 170,000 years before disappearing between 33,000 to 24,000 years ago.
Their extinction coincided with the migration of modern humans out of Africa and across Europe. Few mysteries in the history of human ancestry have been as hotly debated as what caused the extinction of the Neanderthals.
Some scientific theories have Neanderthals dying out because they were less well-adapted to the climate changes that occurred across Europe at that time. Others cite evidence of a more brutal end, in which Neanderthals were slaughtered by modern humans.
This new study helps to settle the controversy. According to the researchers, the populations probably blended together through sexual reproduction. “Extinction through absorption is a common phenomenon,” says Trinkaus.
The human remains were found in Pestera Muierii (‘Cave of the Old Woman’), an elaborate cave system in Romania. First uncovered in 1952, the fossils remained poorly dated and largely ignored until recently.
Using carbon dating techniques, Trinkaus and colleagues found that the remains were 30,000 years old. Their analysis of the bones revealed diagnostic skeletal features of modern humans, including smaller eyebrow ridges, very narrow holes where the nostrils join the skull, and a shin bone that is flat on one side and concave on the other.
However the mostly human skeletons also possessed distinct Neanderthal features; features that were not present in ancestral modern humans in Africa. These include a large bulge at the back of the skull, a more prominent projection around the elbow joint, and a narrow socket at the shoulder joint.
Further analysis of one skeleton’s shoulder showed that these humans did not have the full set of anatomical adaptations for throwing projectiles, such as spears, during hunting.
According to the researchers, this mixture of human and Neanderthal features suggests that a complicated reproductive scenario existed as humans and Neandertals interbred. The hypothesis that the Neanderthals were simply replaced should therefore be abandoned, they suggest.
Trinkaus says we may carry some of the genetic legacy of the Neanderthals within us. However it would be difficult to determine which of us are more closely related to the Neanderthals: “there has been 30,000 to 35,000 years of human evolution since then,” he says.
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If this is so, would not modern Europeans have a different genome to that of modern Africans, the African population largely being “uncontaminated” by the Neanderthal influence?
That seems logical, though a lot of migration is possible in the 30,000 years since. Personally I don’t support the gentic-mixing theory, I mean, even if the genome shows 99.9% similarities, that means nothing. We share approx. 99% of our DNA with chimpanzees, and we can’t interbreed with them. So I still vouch for replacement.
I’d also like to add that we should be wary of counting the fact that they “did not have the full set of anatomical adaptations for throwing projectiles” as a trait exclusive to neanderthals, as it merely represents a type of subsistence, which is not a gentically inherited trait. We could certainly interpret that as homo sapiens being influenced by contact with neanderthal culture, but again we mustn’t assume that this form of subsistence could not have formed independently.
It may not necessarily be true that we can’t interbreed to produce an offspring with chimps. Animals have (on very rare occasions have produced offsprings at about the same genetical difference). ex Blue whales with humpback whales Asian elephants with African elephants.
The whole proposition of trying to decide the Neandertal controversy–as to whether they interbred with modern humans or became completely extinct–on the basis of subjective, skeletal analyses is improper. This is not science!
In a more objective approach, genetic studies by Paabo Svante have concluded that the Neandertals were not capable of interbreeding with Homo sapiens because they were a different species, Homo neandertalensis. And, currently, other genetic studies are under way to either validate or refute Svante’s research.
Considering this, why is Erik Trinkhaus so eager to end the controversy on the basis of some subjective analyses, ruling in favor of interbreeding? Is it borne out of sympathy for the Neandertals? Is it a desperate attempt to undermine the Out-of-Africa theory of modern human origins. Like his co-conspirator, Milford Wolpoff, in this matter, Trinkhaus has no only lost respect and credibility, but he seems to have lost his mind.
Like Erik Trinkhaus (http://news-info.wustl.edu/pub/libs/images/usr/149_h.jpg), I once had blond/red hair and have always wondered what the ‘weird’ projection (inion) was at the base of my skull. I always wondered where my green eye-color, freckles, unibrow, elbow notch, and intelligence came from prior to my Scottish ancestry; maybe Dr. Trinkhaus is similarly motivated, maybe not.
As far as I know these shared traits evolved either separately in each group or were transferred between the groups. I’m willing to accept either answer and hope that the Neanderthal DNA sequencing will shed further light on the origin of my many, rare traits.
I am willing to believe that the species interbred due to the fact that the neanderthals were too intelligent to go extinct. They shared at least 99.5% of our dna sequence and were seperated from modern humans for at most 500000 years. Canines are completely differently physically but can still interbreed. Furthermore the basques in the iberian peninsula were a mesolithic culture that could have interbred with the neanderthal and basques share over 90% genetic similarity with the indigenous people of the british isles mainly the scottish, welsh and cornish. Maybe the interbreeding of the groups produced the new gene of red hair and freckles between 20-40000 years ago.
Just because 2 species are genetically different does not rule out the possibilty of them interbreeding.
Lions and Tigers are 2 genetically different species, and have historically remained so because they exist on seperate continents. However under artifical circumstances (ie. in captivity) they not only interbreed to produce live offspring (Liger and Tigon), but these offspring can then also breed with Lions and Tigers to produce live offspring (Li-liger, Ti-liger, Li-Tigon and Ti-tigon).
Although not common, it is definitely possible. Surely the same thing could have been possible between Neanderthals and Homo sapiens.
my brow pertrubes just the same as our lost relative, im 5″6 tall &dark complexion as was my father and my son
All dogs belong to the same species. The many different breeds of dogs is akin to the many different races of humans. We are different in height, stature and robustness but can still interbreed because we are all one species. The same principle applies for dogs. Genetics determines speciation. All races of humans are nearly genetically identical as are all breeds of dogs. Neanderthals were too genetcially dissimilar to humans to produce viable offspring. 99.5% of the human genome is still a difference of 15 million base pairs. The differences from human to human are about 3 million base pairs or less.
In order for a liger to interbreed it always has to be female. WHile it is possible that this can occur and it has happened the offspring will always be frail. All of the documented cases of liger or tigon hybrids were raised in captivity. If it did happen it would have been an extremely rare event and the probability of that offspring surviving to adulthood would be very very low.
Guys, lets stop running around a taboo subject. Neanderthal fossils were in Europe and Middle East. Neanderthals had big noses like Europeans/Mid East. They didn’t survive several ice ages, have bigger brains, 1500cc etc, were great hunters, and just die out around 40k years ago, thats insane. It seems to me its pretty clear SOME interbreed with Europeans and Middle Easterners. This probably gave them more intelligence, which may have led to advanced societies (fertile crescent, Rome etc) I am not completely disregarding Jared Diamonds theory, but come on its obvious.
I think we should reserve judgement until we get an exact definition of the neanderthal genome. Research is currently underway on a perfectly preserved ancient bone.However the gene microcephalin that appeared in humans migrating to Europe and later spread to over 70% of the human species could have arisen from neanderthals. Most likely they traded information with eachother. They were in contact with humans for about 20000 years and even inhabited the same caves as the 24000 year old evidence in Spain reflects. Another interesting fact is that humans may have bred with chimps before completely speciating.
Lets assume that Neanderthals didn’t interbreed with our ancestors, then the question remains, why did they become extinct?
Perhaps our ancestors exterminated them, but then, where are the remains of their butcheries?. Also, according with our social behaviour, sometimes their females could have been taken as war prizes -since they resembled so close our own ones-, perhaps even along with their children. Are there any traces of Humans and Neanderthals living together?
Maybe our ancestors brought with them some diseases that Nearderthals couldn´t survive, and of course, we survived the ones brought by them. Something like this happened after Columbus came to America, tens of millions of native americans died in only a few years, just because of newly imported diseases.
Given that Chimps have 24 paired chromosomes and we have 23, the chances of live offspring (forget whether or not it would capable of producing offspring of its own) are slim to nil…
An intersting note is that even with chomosome mismatch fertile offspring still occur in different species.
Take the Modern horse (64 chromosomes) and Przewalski’s Horse (66 chromosomes); interbreed them and you get a fertile hybrid with 65 chromosomes.
“did not have the full set of anatomical adaptations for throwing projectiles”
This is refering to the creatures biological traits, not just a subsistence stategy, and is therfore most certainly inherted. That point in the article is that the body was not well adapted to the throwing of projectiles.
I present the following, as found on in my internet reaserch. (from http://www.ratbehavior.org/Hybridization.htm)
Matings between these species usually fail, but a few viable, sterile offspring are on record:
* Goats and sheep: Goats and sheep tend not to produce offspring, but in a single case a sterile goat-sheep hybrid was produced in Botswana.
Matings between these species tend to produce viable, sterile offspring:
* Lovebirds: Fischer’s lovebirds (Agapornis personata fischeri) and Peach-faced lovebirds (Agapornis rosecollis) can interbreed and produce sterile offspring. Interestingly, the lovebird hybrid displays intermediate nesting behavior. Fisher’s lovebirds carry single strips of nest material in their beaks. Peach-faced lovebirds tuck many pieces of nest material between their rump feathers. The hybrids show a poorly organized mixture of the two strategies: they tuck nest material between their feathers but fail to let go, pull it out again, and start over. After several months, they can become partly successful, managing to transport some material back to the next site, but not in a manner that resembles either parent species. Sometimes they just turn their heads toward their rumps without tucking, then fly off with the material (Dilger, 1962).
* Lion-leopard crosses produce viable but sterile offspring called leopons. The most famous leopons were five cubs born in Hanshin Park in Japan (two in 1959, three in 1962). The last one died in 1985 (Doi and Reynolds 1967).
Matings between these species produce viable offspring that are usually sterile, but a few fertile female hybrids are on record:
* Whales: Several naturally occurring crosses between blue whales (Balaenoptera musculus) and fin whales (Balaenoptera physalus) have been identified. One male hybrid was sterile, and of the two female hybrids, one was sterile while the other was pregnant, though it is unknown whether her fetus would have been viable (Arnason et al. 1991, Spillaert et al. 1991, Bérubé and Aguilar 1998).
* Horse species: Crosses of horse species within the genus Equus tend to produce viable but sterile offspring. Zebra-horse, zebra-donkey and zebra-pony crosses produce sterile zorses, zedonks and zonies. Horse-donkey crosses produce sterile mules. Very rarely, a female mule may be fertile.
* Lion-tigress crosses produce sterile offspring called ligers. Tiger-lioness crosses, tigons, are more rare. In some cases, female ligers and tigons have proved to be fertile.
Matings between these species produce sterile male and fertile female hybrids:
* Cattle and bison: Domestic cattle (Bos taurus) and American bison (Bison bison) can be crossed to produce beefalo. Female hybrids are usually fertile, while males are sterile (Steklenev 1995, 1997).
* Domestic cats (Felis catus) can breed with their close wild relatives. Typically, the female hybrids are fertile while the males are sterile. For example, domestic cats crossed with servals (Felis serval) produce hybrids called Savannah cats; with Asian leopard cats (Felis bengalensis) produce hybrids called Bengal cats, and with jungle cats (Felis chaus) produce hybrids called chausies.
* Dolphin and false killer whale: There has been one case of a female bottlenose dolphin (Tursiops truncatus) and a male false killer whale (Pseudorca crassidens) producing a fertile female hybrid, called a wolphin. She went on to breed with a dolphin and produced a daughter.
Matings between these species produce hybrids of unknown fertility:
* Bobcat and lynx: Bobcats (Lynx rufus) and lynxes (Lynx canadensis) may cross; several such crosses have happened naturally in the wild (also Q&A on Minnesota bobcat-lynx crosses (pdf)).
* Porpoises: Dall’s porpoises (Phocoenoides dalli) and harbour porpoises (Phocoena phocoena) can conceive offspring. Many individuals with intermediate pigmentation have been observed, indicating that such offspring may be viable (Baird et al 1998).
I do concur that the “replacement” theory regarding Neandethals is flawed (and too reminiscent of the Victorian fascination with a “master race”,) but the larger brain of the Neanderthal may have provided protection against microcephaly, not greater intellgience. The first art was discovered in southern Africa and Australia, areas that never saw a single Neanderthal. Not ot nmention the illustrious civilization of Egypt, that was raised up by Africans, not Europeans or Middle Easterners. In fact, it was Egyptian knowlege washing upon the shores of the Grek mainland that fueled what we And more “advanced” societies are not necessarily a good thing. Rome was built on the backs of slaves so overworked they could not even reproduce to fill their own ranks, and their treatent of women is some of the worst on record.
It would be fascinating to find out that I can trace my lineage to Petralona or La Chappelle (I am very big-boned ans 5’3 with a very wide face and I build up muscle very rapidly, so I wouldn’t be suprised), but it is hardly worth getting so upest about. So just hold your breath until we know for sure, and even then, it’s not such a big deal. At this poiint, I don’t care whether or not they were an evolutionary “dead end”; it’s when people imply that “race” determine one’s capabilites that ticks me off.
Not an Expert !! But They Call them Neanderthal I call them Early Humans
They Rather put us closer to an Ape than the So called Neanderthal
Absolutely is Possible to Interbreed Why Not??
(offensive commentary deleted)
The theory Of modern human Is Because we allways think that we are more
Superior than anything else on the Planet.
Neanderthal Had to be Smart He would of never Survive All that time By being Stupid and ignorant to survive in those harsh times you had to be a surviver,intelligent.
Regarding interbreeding – if it was possible, I expect it was at least attempted (based on what we know about human behaviour). I can’t begin to guess how successful such attemts may have been — or how often it may have happened. I expect it was taboo and only loners, exiles or other marginalized persons would have even considered such behaviour.
Regarding intelligence – there are different kinds of intelligence. Whatever form of intelligence Neanderthals exhibited, it may not have included the cognitive flexibility (able to look at a situation from different perspectives)or the social ties needed to support whatever crises they faced. I think of it this way – when the going gets tough, the most successful survivors are the ones with the social contacts & the mental dexterity to exploit those contacts to their best advantage.
See the report : http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/07/980707073901.htm
Saying that H. sapiens, us can’t breed with H. neanderthalensis, Neanderthals is way different than Homo sapiens to Pan tricyclodytes. Since the genetic split was 5 million years ago even before the genus Homo. Sahelanthropus tchadensis was the split. H. sapiens and H. neanderthalensis could freely hybridize early in speciation. Chimps and humans have a chromosome mismatch. Neanderthals and humans don’t.
I think it’s been proven that very different species of animals (with very different chromosomal numbers) are capable of interbreeding in captivity (do a search for hybrid animals on wikipedia.org for some ideas). Saying 99.x% is not “close enough” doesn’t prove anything.
Regarding humans and chimps, there’s no published scientific evidence that a human/chimpanzee hybrid could or couldn’t occur. No need for actual mating; this experiment could be performed fairly easily in a “test tube” environment. However there are too many ethical (science fiction) scenarios for anyone to publish such results.
Regarding DNA that’s 10s of thousands of years old, it’ll be tough to run such an experiment, at least with today’s level of technology.
I think there’s a reasonable chance that there are some vestiges of relatively recent neanderthal genes in some modern humans.
Perhaps you prove your words by your words.
Well, this theory in my estimation is much kinder than any I’ve read. With a brain larger than H. Sapians it seems odd that H. Neanderthalis would be at such a disadvantage. I think what likely happended was that H. Sapians, roughly the same or simular in size to the Neanderthals found them quite attractive. They likely interbred so much and evolved generally that no one could tell the difference anymore. Nor did they care as long as the children came out ok. As a species we have to get over certain preconcieved notions and myths. What we call Neanderthal man may just have been an indiginous tribe of humans who were like mountaineers – stong, beautiful and slightly different from H.Sapians.
This explains a lot. There are some neanderthals among us. You know the ones with the thick foreheads and too thick arms. Men and women throwbacks to a more violent age when their brawn was more important than clear thinking.
I find your statement to be unscientific! You ignore MCPH1 that, by all genetic testing & standards, “introgressed” into the human genome ~37,000 yrs ago. Because this 1.1 million yr old gene suddenly appeared in a 200K yr old species, in the mid east & rose to a positive selection of 70% of the World population, it strongly suggests an archaic source.
Listen folks, I kinda want to think that the Neanderthals interbred with us and live on, in our genes. However the DNA alalysis, mitochondrial, and now a nuclear DNA study says we diverged hundreds of thousands of years ago. I hear a more extensive sequencing/comparison is underway. So far, assuming the evidence is being interpreted correctly, they know that if there was any inbreeding, it had to be very, very limited. Now even a very, very limited mixing could have significant and interesting implications… I’m not denying that. I’m just saying the evidence clearly shows it wasn’t a big merging of species into one, like some want to think.
I also have physical traits approaching the neanderthal, but you can’t deny a good DNA analysis, so I consider it convergent evolution.
I for one, can’t wait for what more they find over the next 3-5 years!
One of my theories playing on the red hair signature is that the Vikings were pretty much known for this trait, in fact it was the Vikings that brought the English word “Freckles” into our language.
Just possibly the origin of the Vikings/Nordic’s could be pre Cro-Magnon’s either part of the wider Neanderthal group or a similar separate group that has likely exchanged DNA. (Any cross breeding over thousands of years will perculate out).
One thing that everyone seems to have missed? is that Ice Ages are on cycles of around 40-100k time frames. If Neanderthal split 500k years ago… wasn’t there interchange with out of Africa peoples each time the ice retreated? or just maybe the interchange of DNA also worked its way back down into Africa every time there was an Ice age. Personally I see it almost like a potential tidal flow with those traits (esp attractiveness) being retained as important.
Another idea I have had (Although way out) regarding the connection with Neanderthal, is there any above average occurance of child birth problems when compared to the Animal kingdom?, Just seems that if Neanderthals were larger then it could have created problems with Child birth and maybe we still see that genetic wobble even now?
I think that it is intellectually irresponsible to state in an article based only on Dr. Trinkhaus’ research that the controversy regarding Neandertal and modern human interbreeding has been resolved. It absolutely has not. Many researchers in the field continue to believe that there was no admixture between the species. Consider last November’s articles in both Nature and Science regarding the sequencing of nuclear DNA from Neandertals. Neither study, based on genetic rather than visual evidence, supports Dr. Trinkhaus’ theory. In fact, the mitochondrial sequence for Neandertals, while admittedly focused at only one locus and inherited maternally, suggests exactly the opposite. Perhaps your reporter should do a bit more research before providing inaccurate information to teachers.
Personally I believe the burden of proof rests with those that believe there was no interchange.
Let’s apply some logic.
Neanderthal is supposed to be 500k years different the modern Cro Magnon. However, what actually happened in the various periodic Ice ages that occurred during that 500k year timeframe, as I discussed in a previous post?
If you believe Neanderthal was completely isolated for 500k years and didn’t interbred with various outflows from Africa (or Asia) then it is equally plausible that Neanderthal from say Iraq (Germany etc) is 500k years different to Neanderthal in say France. Therefore different groups of Neanderthal are completely different by the same degree as the entrant (modern Cro Magnon man). Firstly prove they were a homogenous pool.
Ok, let’s say Neanderthal is completely different by 500k years and was somehow an isolated gene pool. So, Neanderthal cannot breed with Cro Magnon. Interesting, dogs that are 1,000k years different can interbreed.
Just perhaps they did interbreed and most Neanderthal DNA was inferior whether on a selective attribute or pure genetic, then most of it might have dissipated. Even a small genetic difference between European and say African may therefore be sufficient proof, For instance if African’s have ZERO propensity to have red hair then just what does this prove about Europeans? Red hair offers no environmental attributes but could have some potential correlation to say heightened survival instinct (say intellectual aggression) for it to be such a prevalent genetic trait. So just where did this genetic coloring come from?
I think eventually we’ll find that there were many variations of Neanderthal, some closer and some further away than modern man, and the closer elements have been subsumed into larger gene pools.
Ok, You suggest that Mitochondrial DNA “only at one locus and inherited maternally” is different between Neanderthal and Cro Magnon.
Firstly, Maternal Mitochondrial DNA does NOT change as its passed always via the mother to offspring (And follows the daughters), Mitochondrial DNA is supposedly not present in the head of a sperm and as such is not subject to “admixture”. So, any study of Mitochondrial DNA from Neanderthal should have a common root with modern man of 500,000 years ago. Also, I could propose that Neanderthals may not have been as “attractive” to the new entrants and as such the woman’s mitochondrial DNA may have been washed away with genetic selection.
(Scientists need to look for potentially favourable dna elements and see whether they still exist).
One thing that seems not have been raised yet is the significant deepening of the haplogroup tree in Europe (relative to Africa etc). All the nodes of divergence seem to be contained well within the Neanderthal territory. Just what if these haplogroup changes were the outcome of Cro Magnon passing through “pools” of older tribes? If genetic change is a constant clock then why has it apparently ticked quicker in Europe?
Progressing on from the last statement it’s apparent that in the period 35-40k years ago rapid change occurred (M9 to M343) which is evident in Northern European Male (Y) haplogroup.
The progress of it say in a British Male is
M91>M168>M89>M9>M45>M207>M173>M343
Whereas a Southern European Male (Italy) is
M91>M168>M89>M304
Given the lineage of the British male is through the migration through Western Russia and then Northern Europe you can see the huge geographical distance covered. Whereas we see Italians having taken a “short cut” through Greece etc.
So what caused the Northern Europeans genetic clock to change quicker, I believe through interbreeding with less similar tribes as the migration occurred, basically creating greater variability on DNA replication (Including impacts on the Y element).
To debate mDNA studies you would have to be stupid. However what if a hybrid could only be produced using a Male Neanderthal and a female Human. Two or three generations of this style interbreeding could more or less wipe out Neanderthal mDNA. Genius? maybe.
This would certainly explain my barrell chest and back hair. Don’t have the protruding brow though….probably lost in translation.
The fact remains that even though Neandrethals migrated somewhat Northwards into Europe, there still remains the possiblility that early Homo Sapian may have migrated around to areas in Africa back to earlier Neandrethalis Settlements, and therefore the Genome would be “contaminated” as so to speak.
Even if the skeletons are neanderthal-sapiens hybrids, one group interbreeding in one area did not necessarily have anything to do with groups elsewhere, nor does some interbreeding mean a peaceful end to Neanderthal– Europeans interbred with Native Americans even as they were destroying them, not by reproductive absorption, but by disease, war, and habitat displacement.
If we are to believe this, why not also believe Daniken’s hypothesis that human evolution may have been manipulated through means of genetic engineering by extraterrestrial beings?
This would mean that that humans as we know them today are a mix Humans, Neanderthals AND ETs.
Kinda cool, huh?!
I think the proper thing to respond to this taboo subject is, so what? If indeed we do have folks of European and Middle Eastern geographic extraction who might have as great…-great-grandmother the character Iza, so what? Does that make that family less worthy? No. Is it thrilling to think that we have descendants of the best of Neanderthal survivors among us? Yes! Anecdotally, I have observed barrel-chested, huge proboscis endowed and red-haired people among us, and I wonder if that phenotype has more to it than just what I see. And if someone said to me, well, pal, you have some _____ [enter your racist stereotype here] “blood” in ya, I would say, oh, well, wow, that’s nice. What’s the difference?
Cheers, all!
If there was interbreeding, most probably it happened on the areas where neandethals lived of which many caucasians lived today. For sure, neanderthal genetic inheritance in a very remote and hot climate african place might be considered as nil. Why not select people residing on those areas and study their DNA and compare it with those DNAs found with Neanderthals, ancestral modern humans.
Let’s be honest about the political correctness of this issue.
Is’n it a sweet liberal fairytale that we are all african. Our differences are only skin deep….. one big human family.
The brute, racist-fascist, carnivorous, mammoth hunting neanderthal beeing exterminated by the smart, multicultural, vegetarian, banana harvesting african prince.
Versus the the big brained aggressive Neanderthal and Cro Magnon interbreeding. Gainig the advantages of the two types, thinner built, highly intelligent (adapted to the harsh environment of the North) and aggressive. Hinting that there maybe a genetic reason for the caucasian dominace of the world.
Very soon we will know the answere when multiple specimens of Neanderthal genome will be sequenced and our knowledge of genes and their effect on behaviour and intelligence will be known.
Well before we credit Paabo Svante, let’s wait until there is more genetic research done on another prehistoric individual.
Other than that, how does one explain a “modern” Neanderthal with a very “human” chin- amongst other features, but very Neanderthal jaw dimentions- as found in Portugal, 3,000 years younger than the youngest Neanderthal remains?
Burden of proof always lies on those making the positive proposition.
Just sayin’…
Neanderthal is a human just an extinct race of a human being absorbed in other human races !
The difference between Neanderthal and other races is just minor morphological changes in forehead and cranial volume
Neanderthal is not a different species
evolionists trying to exaggerate the case!!!
no difference between Neanderthal and the average human !!
Just look at the eyebrow ridges and even the chin structure of nearly a third of the travellers in the Paris metro, mostly fair-skinned. No doubt about interbreeding. Even I have the Neanderthal bump at the base of my skull. Feel around.
You mean a male human with a female neanderthal. For a couple of reasons. First of all, it is much more likely that humans took neanderthals as concubines, and I don’t think women took male neanderthal concubines. Also, it would have been easier for a neanderthal to give birth to a neanderthal baby than a human, I’m assuming. But, I don’t think they did reproduce.
If they mated it would have been a male human with a female neanderthal. For a couple of reasons. First of all, it is much more likely that humans took neanderthals as concubines, and I don’t think women took male neanderthal as concubines. Also, it would have been easier for a neanderthal to give birth to a neanderthal baby than a human, I’m assuming. But, I don’t think they did reproduce with each other.
Based on an Oxford University 2001 study of the gene that results in red-headedness,[15] some commentators speculated that Neanderthals had red hair and that some red-headed and freckled humans today share some heritage with Neanderthals.[16][17] A 2007 study analysing Neanderthal DNA found that some Neanderthals were indeed red-haired, but the mutation to the MC1R gene which caused red hair in Neanderthals was different from that found in modern individuals, ruling out that red hair is a trait inherited from the Neanderthals.
I’ve been extremely interested in the concept of Neanderthals and Humans breeding recently. I started thinking on it mostly to try and explain why there seem to be a portion of our population that cannot use logic or reason to further themselves.
I wonder whether Neanderthals lacked, or were not as strongly developed in these areas and, as a subsequent result of inbreeding, passed this trait down through crossed gene pools
There has clearly been an ability for humans throughout our history to successfully apply logic, reason and introspection to increase our quality of life, however these abilities have never seemed to be something available to all human beings. I question how such an important process in the evolution of the human mind, and thus the human world, can seem to be utterly diminished in some people. Its lack of presence in some is quite clear throughout human history, right up to today. Little to no understanding of action and reaction and cognitive flexibility has led to horrible crimes throughout our history that go against the basic morals of human society – which have no less been developed by that other human beings using that same process of logic and reasoning that is missing in the perpetrators of said crimes.
This clear difference is something quite befuddling to me. I am a youth worker by trade and I see a startling inability to use these most important functions in many of the teenagers and young adults I work with. However, I also see this same problem within the adults around me in my personal life, the community around me and the reported world at large.
If it is nurture as opposed to nature, why is it that some people never learn to utilise these skills effectively? Why have people throughout history made the same mistakes repeatedly?
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/07/980707073901.htm
I for one am strongly in favour of the interbreeding theory and I eagerly await the results of further scientific enquiry. If anyone has any information and further reading for me on this topic, or anything relating to my theory please send to marackuss@yahoo.com.au
Cheers,
JM
As a someone who has reddish hair, freckles, “strong” nose, sloping forehead, longer than normal arms and short stumpy legs under a slightly barrel chested chunky body that can not throw worth a damn or run real fast (but has no problem wearing tee shirt and shorts in the snow, even going barefoot in the snow sometimes…) and has a strong brow ridge, with high I.Q. and Oh Yeah, thick bones… I had no trouble attracting a mate with fragile modern traits like a high forehead and light bones. “Strong” built males are attractive to females…
I also have what my dad called “farmers hands”. Very large hands with round / blunt fingertips that barely fit on a typewriter key. I must take care in shaking hands not to crush frail hands from India, Middle East, Asia, etc. I don’t even feel it when the other guy is grimacing and starting to slump… Long arms (2 inch advantage in Golden Gloves weight class!) with big hands worked well in boxing. They also work well in computer programming with care in typing, I just can’t floss worth a damn… We won’t go into the fact that at 50+ years I still have my wisdom teeth other than to mention that my “modern” type wife never developed any…
I can easily see a case where Neanderthal males were seen as especially strong and attractive to modern females… just look at what sells in the movies! BTW, the evidence seems to point to a more aggressive and combative lighter built modern with a violent streak vs a more peaceful and isolated heavy built Neanderthal busy fighting nature. That would also match with my tendency to just want to be left alone by a modern society bent on combat and hyperactivity… If there is any weakness here, it’s just in not understanding how to practice deception and guile as well. Traits moderns ought not to take pride in having in abundance.
So I see no problem with a thesis that Neanderthal females didn’t interbreed as much as Neanderthal men (so the mitochondria are all modern) while Neanderthal traits where eventually diluted into a mostly modern base. It would explain a great deal about the physical differences between modern Europeans and everyone else. I look at the recent reconstructions of Neanderthals and see what look like family and friends. Sigh.
BTW, anyone who grew up on a farm can tell you that if it’s possible to mount, one critter will try mounting another. Heck, more than once farm kids have watched the bull trying to mount the tractor… and we won’t talk about sheep… Even in nature. I’ve seen a sparrow trying to get some Finch action. Then there is George Carlin’s picture of his dog doing the cat…
And the species barrier isn’t very strong. There are a very large number of odd crosses that happen. I’ve seen a fertile mule with her offspring. There are population spectra where each region can mate with a neighbor, but the two most remote ends can not viably cross. It’s the norm during species formation. Unintended crosses are a pain in the neck for folks trying to keep seed pure for vegetable gardens. Lettuce crosses with the wild form of proto lettuce despite thousands of years of separation. Modern corn (maize) seems to be the product of an accidental cross of two different species of grass about 5-8k years ago. The idea that moderns and Neanderthals lived in the same areas for a few tens of thousands of years and never got in each others pants is just broken.
The notion that a few thousand Neanderthals would be absorbed into a repeating flood of out-of-Africa moderns until their genes were left afloat in the gene pool as a regional variation seems to account for all the known facts while being simplest. And no, no one has to be better than the other for this to happen. One population just needs to be larger. See the present work being done to save the American Elm by preserving some of it’s character in a repeated crossing with disease resistant Chinese elm. How long were these two species separated? And is the hybrid that looks American but with Chinese metabolism really an American Elm? Or Chinese? And which is “better”?
its found that Neanderthals never interbred from a DNA test and that they became extinct due to Homo Sapients (humans)
Possible Two or more tribes of human the out of Africa theory doesn’t hold enough weight when you look at the comparisons between our DNA, Neanderthal DNA.
sexy neanderthal chick walks past two cro mags
“hey Ugg, would you hit that?”
*shrug*
and there you go..
Part of the problem here is that many people assume a taxonomic level of species differentiation has a relationship to actual interbreeding potential.
Paleo-species are determined on the basis of observed anatomical differences based on extremely fragmentary fossil finds from the archeological record.
A population biologist will tell you that the distinction between species is whether, quite simply individuals are actually, or potentially capable of breeding.
So it might be perfectly posssible for a time travelling anatomically modern human to breed with, say, a Homo erectus or vice versa.
Population biologists think of gene variation as clinal gradients within populations not as ‘races’ or ‘breeds’ ‘varieties’ or species barriers.
The problems with the ‘African’ Eve hypothesis are multiple not least that it is really a biological metaphor for a particular kind of creationism.
Concentrating on mtDNA to tell this story of creation will not stand the revelations of possible recombination of mtDA, nor can it provide answers to the far more complicated evolutionary questions posed by recombining autosomal DNA.
A simple way of explaining this is to ask who did this African Eve born (perhaps)160,000 years breed with? and who would she have been capable of breeding with?
Probably she bred with someone geographically and genetically close to her.
But as she did not represent a speciation event I have never understood this over reliance on mtDNA.
She might well have been capable of breeding with populations of late homo erectus in Asia or she might have had offspring fathered by her half-brother (or father).
Either way the entire lineage of her mates’ mother’s mtDNA would be lost forever but not their autosomal DNA subject to sexual and natural selection.
To show how silly mtDNA creation stories are we can look at the latest view of the origin of the domestic cat.
We are told that it is not descended from either the African or the European wildcat but from 5 female near Eeastern cats in Mesopotmaia 9,000 ya.
This is dumb as any cat breeder will tell you. I have a Bengal/Maine coon cat and I know that it has two lineages of wild cat admixtures, one from an Asian Leapord cat only 4 generations ago. The Asian Lepord cat is a viverine a different genus with a split time from felis about 5-6 million yr ago.
No doubt my cat having been hybridised with a domestic cat has its mtDNA from Mesopotamia and as genetic testing stands there is no way of ‘proving’ the incredibly well documented hybridisation.
Morphologically and behaviourally my cats wild cat admixture is obvious (how common are cheetah spots and a mutation allowing him to run down trees head first on British Moggies?) yet genetic testing of autosomal DNA is in its infancy.
To my mind the most compelling evidence for neanderthal genetic input into modern human populations (aside from the obvious shared morphological features in neanderthals and eurasian populations that need more than a statement of parallel or convegent evolution to adequately explain) is the recent work on introgression of genes coding for microcephalin.
This is dynamite, revolutionary stuff for paleo-anthropologists (but not a surprise for population geneticists).
Perhaps finally human evolution will walk out of the bone closet and catch up with modern genetics, that together with population geneticists and anthropologist can start to put together the complex mosaic of ancient and modern that the human species represents.
(for a comparator look at the research on the genetics of British populations and how a sociological fact like an apartheid style society in early anglo-saxon England could have produced a massive increase in 50% germanic y chromosome haplotypes in just a few generations with just a 5-20% founder population)
Neanderthals might not have contributed much to modern European genomes but it seems that for at least one gene with a highly adaptive trait it has been highly significant.
mettaculture
Science is not a guessing game.
you are one , helluve wise man . Joh
Evidence it is, that is beyond merely suggestive.
What about the advanced societies of China and India? Most of Europe wasn’t all that advanced until much later in prehistory/history.
Regarding:
“Science is not a guessing game.”
Submitted by Visitor on 31 August 2008 – 8:57am (on page 2 of comments)
Science arrives at practically useful theoretical models by testing hypotheses. Hypotheses represent the results of highly informed and intelligently structured guessing games. Science evolves via hypothetical “guessing games” that are then exposed to something metaphorically equivalent to an accelerated version of natural selection. It’s called testing hypotheses.
Dude. Our genomes are pretty much the same. And yes Europeans do have a distinctive genome from Africans. Their skulls possess different features that are distinctive and it has been shown that certain characteristics in skin from DNA are shared between Africans and Asians, but not by Europeans.
“Neandertal Claims Are Unscientific”
Dude there is no preserved tissue from Neanderthals to determine their DNA and Chromosome count. So we don’t know if they were part of our species or not. At least not from DNA, bones are a different matter.
“The whole proposition of trying to decide the Neandertal controversy–as to whether they interbred with modern humans or became completely extinct–on the basis of subjective, skeletal analyses is improper. This is not science!”
What is science? Science is looking at something (Observation) [Remains with Neanderthal and Human mix characteristics], then creating a question concerning the observation [Why do these humans have Neanderthal characteristics], creating a hypothesis [Perhaps these humans are an interbrid with Neantherthals], then working out that hypothesis with an experiment [Perhaps we can determine if this a crossbrid through an anaylsis of cross-gene manipulation of other animals that are relative to this example such as Dogs and Wolves].
If dogs and wolves possess skeletonic difference comparative to Humans and Neanderthals then it is possible to conclude through deduction that Neanderthals and Humans could possibly reproduce together. But without a DNA example to verify it, it simply becomes a quite contested theory or well supportable hypothesis yet to become a true factual theory. Then again no theory is factual, dude.
Science is all inductive, you have to use philosophy from logic to make things from science into facts. Science doesn’t make facts, it just introduces more information that could make facts through a process we call deduction.
The thing though is I don’t believe you know what science is. However almost everything in regards to evolution cannot be tested for validity, because much of what we do need for an anaylsis is not available for our own use.
“In a more objective approach, genetic studies by Paabo Svante have concluded that the Neandertals were not capable of interbreeding with Homo sapiens because they were a different species”
And his proof is?
“And, currently, other genetic studies are under way to either validate or refute Svante’s research.”
Without any DNA sample no doubt. Figures. You don’t know what science is and you and Paabo Svante are no different than that Korean guy who lied about being able to clone something. It is a disgrace to science to falsify information to conclude with desirable results. You should be ashamed of yourself.
“Considering this, why is Erik Trinkhaus so eager to end the controversy on the basis of some subjective analyses, ruling in favor of interbreeding?”
Why is Paable Svante in favor of ruling out Neanderthals as part of the Human species so eager to end the controversy on the basis of a rejection of subjective analysis and zero presentable evidence?
“Is it borne out of sympathy for the Neandertals?”
Is your hypothesis borne out of disolution of a superiority complex that Homo Sapien Sapiens are superior to Neanderthals?
Get real man. Until you find PROOF, you have nothing to argue about either way.
“Is it a desperate attempt to undermine the Out-of-Africa theory of modern human origins.”
Neanderthals still come from Africa, you imbecile.
“Like his co-conspirator, Milford Wolpoff, in this matter, Trinkhaus has no only lost respect and credibility, but he seems to have lost his mind.”
So says you who wants to prove the very opposite without any contestable data nor resources on your side. You have and Svante have not only lost respect from me, but from the entire world. Especially in your lack of intelligence in establishing a legitimate argument and a humble critique.
What makes you pathetic is misusing the word “conspirator” in your statement. You make me sick. And hope someday you’ll actually take a science lab course at a community college so you can finally know what Science really is, because they obviously pass you through school like Bush from the money granted by your ever so rich daddy who continues to spoil your rotten ass.
Know this: I’m not defending Wolpoff or Trinkhaus, but they stand on a much better argument that supports scientific findings base on actual evidence (remains) than yourself, who is just a continuation of failed psuedoscience crafted from the abusive government.
Come back when you’ve got something to prove, dude.
Actually the genetic split occurred 600,000 years ago, not 5million. Also we don’t share 99% common DNA with Chimps but 95%. I surprisingly read on wiki that the genetic similarity of modern humans with neanderthals is 99,5%, exactly the difference that modern races have today. I think that interbreeding would have been possible, but I’m not sure if it actually happened. Or maybe it did, but not often, and the genes just became extinct in the human genetic pool over time.
Red hair is on both sides of my family, and all three kids have red hair. Interestingly, my mother was the only one of three sisters who was able to have children. My sister and I were also unable to have children. The cause in most of our cases was endometriosis. Interestingly, we have also inherited a whole passle of both homozygous and heterozygous recessive genes, some of which can be harmless but in my case they do cause problems. My family is Nordic/Scandinavian, from near the Artcic Circle, on both sides. My prediction is that when they finally do map the Neanderthal genome, the nearest human “match” will be brown-eyed redheads. They are disproportionately prone to things like ADHD, genius, autoimmune diseases, and so on. And if these genomes are compared, it may be that the brown-eyed redhead and the Neanderthal are very close indeed.
Nordic Girl
What if a chimp with down syndrome breeds with a human with down syndrome. They will have the same chromosomes as the chimp will have 47 and human will have 47.
email me on datdean300@hotmail.com on this topic.
Wow! You sure are a hateful person. The fact is, humans did emerge from Africa, and the fact is, genetically, we are more alike than different. The fact is, no one is saying that those who left Africa for the rest of the world were peaceful vegetarians. The fact that you would say that speaks a great deal about you as a person and how insider/outsider, us-them dichotomy is a part of our genetic endowment and a paleolithic survival strategy that has no place on a crowded planet.
My uncle is a Neanderthal.
Europeans were lacking in any advanced culture if measured by speed in comparison to the ancient Chinese, some middle-eastern cultures and Egypt…
It wasn’t until the Greeks did the Europeans gain any momentum for cultural advancement worthy of the http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/comment/reply/814word “civilized”
Funnily enough the King James sports a passage apparently a word of caution from god. I always wandered what it meant. The passage reads something like. Go forth and multiply but do not breed with the giants of the earth.
and another ‘There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown’
Could these passages along with many others suggesting giants walked the earth refer to Neanderthal man.
I am not a scientist but the subject has always interested me. I have read most of your comments and I find them fascinating and educational. I still go with the interbred theory. A H.Sapiens woman may very well have been attracted to a Neanderthal simply because he was bigger and stronger. Or, with an understanding of males throughout history, any port in a storm…. I am sure they attempted it, and it’s quite possible some produced viable fertile female offsprings.
Okay, now for a laugh. You guys need to lighten up.
I am sure I dated some Neanderthals in my day.
First of all, you must take into account the “INSTINCT” of the male of the species. When I was a teenager, I would go rabbit hunting with a dog. If that dog was a female, it would spend all of it’s time hunting. But, if it was a male, it would only spend half it’s time hunting, and the other half, “looking for someplace to PUT IT”. Including the knot-hole of an old pine stump. Let me tell you, freeing a male rabbit hound from the knot-hole of a pine stump is very interesting, but another story.
Now, look at all the “sex-offenders” we have today. We seem to think that prehistoric man lived by a code of conduct, and such things were taboo. I would suggest that it would be far more realistic to consider that the male of the species would have been looking, much the same as those hunting dogs, for a place to put his as well. If Neanderthal woman was in the vacinity, she would have been “fair game”.
The fact that Neanderthal once ranged far and wide across Europe and
Asia, then the last stronghold of Neanderthal seems to have been Iberia, would suggest to me that there were often confrontations between Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal. In any confrontation, Cro-Magnon had Neanderthal out-gunned. Superior weapons and technology, where Neanderthal did not throw his spear, and Cro-Magnon even had a device that increased the range of his spears, Neanderthal would have been beaten before he got close enough to use his spear. And, of course, to the victor go the spoils.
So, what spoils would Cro-Magnon have been interested in? A wooden tipped spear? Crude stone tools? Not likely, but the women would have provided increased sexual activity, even if there was no reproduction. The almighty orgasm that has moved countries to war since the beginning of time. (Helen of Troy) If reproduction took place, it did. If not, it didn’t. I really don’t think Cro-Magnon male really cared one way or the other.
Each time a conflict took place, Neanderthal’s male number dwindled, and the women may have been taken as slaves to serve their new masters. Can you spell, “FIRST HOMINID TRAFFICING”? Without laws to the contrary, and a police force to enforce them, it’s highly likely that this scenerio would be far more fact than fiction. And, as such conflicts sprung up across the rest of the world, Neanderthal’s last band of survivers were reduced to Iberia.
From all the other theories I’ve read, this one has been left out, and is just as valid as any of them.
i dont get it
But, let’s not forget that a Jenny (female mule) can sometimes produce offspring with another mule. Both mules being offspring of mismatch chromosomal parents. Rare, yes, but it does occur.
Sounds like a lot of Afro-centric bull shit.Its true that the first art was discovered in Africa, but that was a few lines scratched on bones hardly comparable to the astounding artistic explossion that we find taking place in Europe thirty five thousand years ago.Its is true that Ancient Egypt had a high civilization, but its hardly the first civilization nor were the Ancient Egyptians particularly African-Negroid in their genetic-linguist makeup, infact they were rather middle eastern and middle easterners and south eastern Europeans produced the first civilizations.Catal huyak in ancient Anatolia had a very high civilization, when the Ancient Egyptians were still backwards, as did ancient Malta.There is no scientific evidence that Ancient Greece owes anything to Egypt despite the outlandish claims made in ‘Black Athena’
Its hard to think of any substantial achievement in the realm of art or technology that has ever come from subsuharan Africa.
China and India? At the time Neanderthals roamed the earth there was nothing advanced about China or India. Bronze smelting, the wheel, woolen textiles, wheeled vehicles, horse riding were introduced into China by caucasians, namely the ancestors of the Tocharians, 99.9 per cent of all inovations in the last three hundred years have come from Europe or people of European decent, from the combustion engine, fixed winged aircraft, rota blade aircraft, harnessing of electricity, the radio, telecomunications, the train, antibiotics, well lets face it, what Europeans including people of European decent have done in the last three hundred years has dwarfed anything China and India have ever done. Did i mention the jet engine or rocket technology or the x-ray machine etc etc.
Here’s just one scenario I’ve dreamed up…
Suppose the intelligence of neandertals and modern humans had evolved in different directions: Neandertals being quiet, focused, repetitive, practical perfectionists–we might perceive them as autistic geeks. Whereas modern humans being hyper, verbally chattery, socially-vigilant, political game-players. (You know, it was the neandertals who made the world’s most superior-quality stone tools up until about 32,000 years ago, while it was the modern humans who first actually bothered to make art and musical instruments. Think right brain vs. left brain.) So maybe neandertals and moderns had some shy encounters, traded, and on EXTREMELY RARE occasions an interbreeding took place even(?)–statistical DNA evidence may or may not eventually bear this out.
But: They were generally incompatible in the same geographic space, because the loud, hyper modern humans drove the neandertals to avoidance, and so the moderns just kept expanding at the expense of the harried neandertals. Perhaps the last of them were hunted down for sport, killed out of fear (of the weird reclusive), or died of diseases introduced by the moderns.
If as many people who claim to be “geniuses” in this thread actually ARE, we might as well chuck the whole concept.
It’s an interesting comment thread to read to watch various people try to use pet “theories” to explain their obvious racism and unwarranted sense of self-superiority though. (Whereas a real genius would know it’s called a hypothesis and that crap use of the word theory helps lend credibility to the sorts of people who believe evolution is “just a theory.”)
That piece said, the hypothesis that Cro-magnon and Neanderthal mated seems quite likely from commonly observable modern male behaviors with regards to aberrant sexuality (and the propensity for situational/opportunistic rape.) Whether the results of said matings were viable, fertile, and made any lasting genetic contributions to modern man remains to be seen. I do look forward to reading the results of further testing.
If there was interbreeding and the offspring were sterile then the result might depend on the respective population sizes of Neanderthal and H sapiens.
The larger population would unknowingly drive the smaller population to extinction by occupying the Neanderthal females with genetically dead end children.
The reverse cross into the human line would have been less damaging to human numbers if the population was larger, but in both cases the Neanderthal genes would have been lost.
Ironically perhaps the crosses had improved vigour and may have been favoured by both species until reproduction was attempted.
I read somewhere of a cave containing bones of a mixed human and N character that may have been such a mixed family? Has this idea been tested?
Best Wishes Ron Horgan
IMO, when Homo S. left Africa and coexisted with Homo N., they interbred, producing a ‘hybrid’ human. Since only those Homo S. that migrated and intermixed with Homo N. have spread throughout the planet and primal Homo S. stayed in Africa, we could be dealing with two distinct humans, if not even more. Are we ALL human, YES. Are we possibly slightly different humans, YES. Even science has shown PHYSICAL differences in our bodies from Caucasian and African humans such as muscle fiber, brain shape, content and structure and skeletal musculature. TRUTH, even if uncomfortable and possibly ugly (by today’s PC), is still the TRUTH. It would explain much. If you follow the migration, the next Homo S. would be middle eastern. Then Asian. So on and so forth. As Homo S. migrated, they bred in difference that are not available to primal groups that stayed in their ‘home’ location and only bred with their own. Just IMO. Thanks.
But how come there is no mentioning of African interbreeding with Neanderthals as well. Its only Asians and Europen mentioned…This is kind of getting tricky…Scientist starting to divide and rule…
I always liked the idea of “extinction through absorption” because to me, it makes the most sense. I think the evidence really points in this direction. None were found in Africa.. but all the other ones were found in Asia and Europe.. makes sense to me! I’m tired of this violent human view of we have to murder everything we come in contact with (it’s pretty annoying and to me it’s a lazy theory for every explanation), so I like the absorption theory.
34 years ago, I attended one of my ex-wife’s med school classes in sexology. I was invited because her buddy was giving a well-received presentation on bestiality.
During the query period, one med student at the back of the room said he and his buddy had spent the previous summer working at the university’s primate center. And for some bizarre reason, his buddy decided to inseminate their female gorilla with human sperm, in vitro of course, whereupon she became pregnant.
Knowing they were on their way to disciplinary expulsion, they chose to abort the still viable, 3-month old fetus.
Makes me wonder what the right-to-lifers would say about that.
I get this strange instinct, sixth-sense there’s a HUMAN BEING’S Predator stalking us through the ages. You think I’m a nut, but think this through without the baggage of too many details. Keep it simple. There is ABSOLUTELY no way we don’t have a humanoid predator. NO way.
Where are they and why don’t we run from them?
Where are they?
How do you find a WOLF in SHEEP’s clothing? He’s the fattest SHEEP. They live side by side with us today without attracting to much attention. We’ve apparently interbred enough to lose the obvious warning signs. But, they still hunt us.
Is it possible that neanderthals mated possibly to produce offspring? I think the answer is simple and goes no further than observation. Look around , the world has alot to reveal to you. If you take one of ten people randomly and compare them to the exclusive traits to neanderthals ,then i bet you will find that atleast one ,if not more, possesses one or more traits of the pre-historic humans. That`s not enough proof, but it`s better than not believing it isn`t possible.
Is it possible that neanderthals mated possibly to produce offspring? I think the answer is simple and goes no further than observation. Look around , the world has alot to reveal to you. If you take one of ten people randomly and compare them to the exclusive traits to neanderthals ,then i bet you will find that atleast one ,if not more, possesses one or more traits of the pre-historic humans. That`s not enough proof, but it`s better than not believing it isn`t possible.
What nursery school did you go flunk out of (Hotsie, Totsie — I gotta little Nazi)? These are all the products of primarily engineering and scientifically educated, often advanced educated, people and minds, with the incipient formal science of Europe having come directly from the Arabs and elite Islamic culture, and not from Neanderthal genes suddenly activating, after 30,000 to 24,000 years from the extinction of that race or species, in the last 600 years — you could better and just as well argue that the genes of Africans and Asians introduced into the European population in the era of European colonization of the non-European world is the source of European hyper-creativity in the last 300 years and that Europeans stole or took the credit from the colonized technically educated and intellectual classes for many of these inventions and innovation, which in part is a actual argument. The monarchy of Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain, who expelled the ruling Arabic Moors of southern Spain from Spain and unified Spain, set the example for stimulating or incentivizing rapid and prolific intellectual and technological innovation in Europe that led to the Iberians being the first Europeans to circumnavigate the world, explore and establish colonies and trade in Africa, the Far East and the Americas. In the competition between monarchies and European nations for new markets, colonies and riches, the reward of intellectual and technological innovation became institutionalized in Europe and a passion that has evolved not only European technology and science but now world technology and science. Perhaps, needless to say, the 1400s marked the rebirth of the Greco-Roman cultural, intellectual and technological tradition with the dissemination of their values, learning and knowledge from the resurfacing of some of their writings that survived, in Irish monasteries, the burning of the great library of Alexandria in Egypt and the European dark ages following this and the fall of the Roman Empire. In the European marauding and plundering of the non-European kingdoms and societies, they also acquired much technical knowledge and innovations they did not previously have, like gun powder. The invention of the gun and cannon gave Europeans supreme military power over previously more advanced societies and the world.
By the way, the Tocharian society goes back to circa 1,800 EBC and they are related to Iranians or Persians, Eurasians in central Asia (who have had an element with red hair and crystalline eyes among themselves from time immemorial), bordering on China, whereas Indian advanced society goes back circa 4,000 EBC and Chinese advanced society goes back circa 3,000 EBC and windmills for generating electricity were long ago invented in Persia/Iran. It is nonsense that the Tocharians passed on the technologies you claim to India and China, historically highly creative and innovative societies, and far more splendorous and advanced, apart from their outdated weaponry, than any in Europe when they were first overrun by the Mongols and then the by Europeans.
One, I feel highly probable explanation for the disappearance of Neanderthals is the Desoto effect. When Desoto explored North American, he spread diseases that over the next one hundred years decimated the native populations. A similar effect can be seen in South America where an advanced Amazonian civilization disappeared after contact with European explorers and the diseases that they carried. I postulate that the Neanderthals were killed off not by modern humans, but rather by the microbes and diseases that spread from modern humans to them. Are there any studies in regards to this possible extinction cause?
if Neanderthanls had a negative blood type then it would be difficult for the females to produce many offspring with homo sapien positive blood type. assuming that male homo sapiens mated with female neanderthals how long would it take before the neanderthal genes would blend out and become rarer with every generation? the negative blood type trait is specific to europeans as are the neandertal genes.
research rh negative blood
This would show up in the fossil records. It’s usually noted that neanderthals died either violently or of old age.
Will we find all the bones? I doubt it. There’s an old English rhyme that celebrates the giants of old…
‘fe fi fo fum, i smell the blood of an english man, be he alive or be he dead, i’ll grind his bones to make my bread’.
Bone is edible, just ask a jackal.
Early burial rites were possibly just attempts to stop others getting at the emergency food store (and trying to scare off potential looters with the old ‘bone through a cave bears head’ warning).
Oh pardon my grammar, I’m an asperger, I had my own genome sequenced and compared it with the neanderthal draft sequence.
Let’s just say, the neanderthal contribution may have been small, but there was enough vigour to produce modern day individuals who exceed 50% neanderthal genes.
We all look the same? Ever heard of convergent evolution? If we didn’t, we’d be dead, just like all the hybrids who didn’t quite make the grade over the last billion years or so of evolution
Cannabis! It’s the cure for cannibals. Give us Ganja and we will not eat you :p
No.
But history is
They did inbreed and they became Italians from New Jersey
No.
i heard they were 8ft tall? maybe taller, is this true?
I am confident that even the greatest hints won’t aid unskilled graduates formulate super papers for college and universities therefore it is more useful for them to buy essay online.
Humans are humans. But North Africa, the Middle East, India & Europeans are all caucasians. Islam stole from India & Europe. Then declined. But there is only one ‘race’. Many variations but one race. Culture is what determines success. Climate can play a role as well. There were powerful, prosperous societies on virtually every inhabited continent. But it’s the culture that determines success. Nature rewards certain behavior over others.
Close – call me crazy however I believe in the future it will finally be known that an Alien group that were on earth were the ones that produced “us” in a test tube from Neanderthal and their own DNA. reducing brainpower to approx 10% so we were good workers who could think,problem solve but not too smart. Made in the image of God. Yes we are – they were the Gods from heaven (the heavens). Odd if you look hard you will see that cellular DNA stops at a point in time…but Mitochondreal is traceable far earlier. Hmmmmm wonder why? Try Neanderthal mothers. Also check out the pairs of DNA in relation to the rest of life on this planet. there’s the smoking gun.
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